“Everyone has the right to education.” – Article 26, Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR)
The argument can be made with ease that the yeshiva system robs of tens of thousands this fundamental human right, on a daily basis.
Yeshivas, in general, prefer a Palin-esque approach to education: ignorance is the best form of education.
The rebbeim are highly untrained, ignorant morons (forgive the rant), having warmed a kollel seat for too many years until their rich uncle bullies some yeshiva into accepting them as a magid shiur. Never stepped foot in a university. They rarely know the first thing about education, teaching or people, amongst other things.
In most yeshiva high schools post-secondary education is to be avoided like the plague. In my high school, max. 5 percent of its alumni went on to post-secondary education. The standards are appalling. If my basic, primary education weren’t half-decent, I’d be unable to read and write, as well.
I spent seventeen years in the yeshiva system with zilch to show for it. I’m not the only one. Thousands of middle-aged kollel people have spent their entire lives in the system with nary a degree. (If they’re lucky, they have a yeshivish car.)
In the high school I went to the secular studies program was such a joke they didn’t even bother with the charade after December of twelfth grade. Just learn in the Beis Medrash, we were told. (Saves money, I’m guessing.)
There was no accountability. They weren’t state regulated. They gave no credits. They just pulled a lot of shtick and handed out diplomas if and when they chose to do so (ideally if you had no intention to actually use it). I have no doubt they’d do away with the whole limudei chol shpiel altogether if the parents wouldn’t raise a stink about it.
Science lab? Naah. Computer lab? Challilah v’Chas!! Hands-on learning-What’s that? Gym?! Fuhgeddabattit.
My younger brother just started there this year.
Is it any wonder so few yeshiva “graduates” get anywhere in life? Why they’re doomed to be “teachers,” cashiers, cell phone store machers? Get fake degrees? Bamboozle the government? No surprise here. That’s what you get when your system denounces higher education, whatever the cost.
If civil society depends on educating people to become responsible, thoughtful and enterprising citizens, yeshivas are definitely not doing their part.
In the words of Dieter Lenzen, the history of education began either "millions of years ago or at the end of 1770.” Something tells me yeshiva education identifies much more with the former option than the latter.
Yeshiva, anyone?
Wednesday, September 24, 2008
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59 comments:
The following comment has nothing to do with Yeshivah's. I spent enough time there my self, and I know what it's like. It's factory for the production of parasites. My question is a philosophical one.
Now, when you quote that “Everyone has the right to education” what do you mean by that? Where did everyone get that right from, and who is obligated to fulfill it.
You may think the answer to this question is simple and I'm just wasting time, but I asuggest you think about it a bit before answering.
My high school didn't even bother printing up diplomas. No one goes to college, anyway. They just get married and have babies and teach, if absolutely necessary. After all, that is what all those years were for; biding time until the girl reached a marriageable age. If you actually want the diploma, you have to put in a special request and fight for it.
I made it through high school, as horrific as it was. I stood with my f*cking peers on the f*cking graduation dais, but I do not have a diploma to represent my survival. I am basically self-taught, because they made sure to never teach us a thing in school. As Mark Twain said, "I've never let my school interfere with my education."
Now there's an educated man!
Margo:
That's terrible.
How'd you get into school now, though? Got the GED?
No, I took the SAT's and did well and the diploma issue was overlooked. My college has my report cards, so they can see that I did graduate and I just don't have the paper.
I am curious by nature and have a passionate desire for knowledge, so I have been self-educating since I was 4 years old and learned to read. My parents do not approve of college but do enjoy reading. They always allowed me to go to the public library even though my school disapproved, and for this I thank them. I thank them for allowing me to gather the skills that I need for the life that I choose. They may not have always known what was best for me, but they do love me and try hard to help me.
That's good. I'm glad that worked out for you. In my case,I'm going as a mature student, and it's almost like I never even went to high school. Whatever.
So you are also in college now? Don't worry, plenty of kids who went to public school were busy doing drugs or whatever instead of listening, so you're not the only uneducated one there.
Also, reading helps a lot. It helps with English, but also with general knowledge, since books cover a wide range of topics. Do you like to read?
Thanks for the reassurance.
In college now just part time, next year full time.
Yeah, I love reading too. What books do you recommend?
If you want to go into major detail, feel free to email me: offthederech@yahoo.com
Either way, thanks :)
Poor education is not the exclusive prerogative of the yeshivah system.
Consider, for example, Canada's public school system: you spend 14-15 years (depending on whether you do Grade 12 twice and lots of kids do which makes you wonder why they got rid of Grade 13) in the system but the only thing your high school diploma is good for is a job working the till at Tim Horton's (that's a doughnut place for you Americans).
And that's in the Western world. now imagine the school system throughout Africa and the Arab world. Or the indoctrination factories in China and Pakistan.
On the other hand you have the Maimonides school system in Boston started by the Rav that turns out kids with excellent education.
Really, a school that provides a good education is an exception, not a rule. Even some private schools, for example the yeshivah you must have gone to, fall down on the job.
But there's a simple reason for that: the excellent schools do well because the parents demand excellence for their kids. They want their kids to succeed in the real world and they're paying good money to the school to provide an education that will ensure that success.
Schools where the parents don't care about improving their kids, or that don't bother thinking about their futures, don't do well because there's no need to. Mediocrity is always the path of least resistance.
So yes, your yeshiva was probably like that, but this problem is by no means unique to the Jewish school system.
Garnel:
Let's just put it this way: Those who haven't spent a day in yeshiva (high school) shouldn't talk.
I'm not defending the yeshiva high school system.
But, for the record, the Bnei Akiva yeshivah high school in Toronto has a pretty good record for getting its grads into med school, accounting and, nebich, law school.
You can't generalize and you can't say that your school system is the only one that sucks.
And you can't just pick out one school out of thousands and pretend everything else is just as hunky-dory
I can so totally relate to Margo. I had to fight real hard to obtain my diploma. In NY, though, there was (not sure if it's still in effect) a requirement to have specific regent exams passed to obtain a Secular diploma -the one that really counts when wanting to attend a higher education after high school. I worked so hard to get them all, while all the rest of the girls could care less. The school fought me tooth and nail but finally relented and I got my diploma. As for the one they count the most, the Hebrew diploma, well... can't recall where that ended up, and quite frankly I am not at all heartbroken about losing it.
I also agree that reading a lot and pursuing knowledge on your own can get you farther than the education received in yeshivas. Inquiring minds will find a way to find the knowledge they seek. If there's a will, there is a way! ;)
Good post!
Frum Girl Gone South:
Thanks very much for sharing, and your support.
Doesn't it frustrate you-Where's all the frum outrage about this? They pretend to go crazy about molestation and shidduch crises etc. How about an educational crisis? How about crazy school systems, unsustainable lifestyles?
Or are their heads stuck so deep in the sand they don't notice problems til they bite them in the butt? Do they just cede control of all this decision-making to the rabbis (who "always know best") and send their kids off to the wolves?
Just a thought.
I'm not picking just one school and saying the rest are fine. If you re-read what I wrote, you'll see that I actually said the opposite - most school systems are screwed up, you're not alone and your problems aren't unique.
Clearly you have issues with the way you were raised. Well welcome to the club. Pretty much everybody does at one time or another.
You've chosen to reject all that and speak out against it as a result. Wonderful.
But like all the other ranters out here, you keep mixing up the message and the messenger.
Like Frum Girl Gone South. She had some lousy teachers in school. Really lousy. Well I had a lousy chemistry teacher in Grade 13. Real moron of a man who spent his time dropping his pens in front of where the cute girls in miniskirts were sitting instead of actually teaching us anything.
Does that mean chemistry sucks? Does that make chemistry untrue? Does that make people who hate chemistry and write books about how stupid it is right?
No, no, and no.
This reaction is quite common. In kids, it manifests as the inability to tell the difference between hatred and anger. "You're angry at me, therefore you hate me." The idea that a friend, or even a parent could be mad but still love the person is incomprehensible. But when you grow up, you learn the difference and relationships survive the angry moments.
Believe it or not, you're having just such an angry moment - well, it might be longer than a moment. And you're confusing anger with hate.
Bad teachers make Judaism bad? Does that relly make sense? Other than your closed upbringing, did you ever learn about other kinds of Torah observance? Mizrachi? Modern Orthodoxy? Hirsch?
Have you ever heard the old joke: the talmid goes to the rebbe and says "I have an admission. I can't just can't go on with this anymore. I've decided to become an apikorus." And the rebbe askes him "How long have you been studying?" "Twelve years" is the answer. So the rebbe laughs and says "You don't know enough to be an apikorus yet."
Do you?
Garnel:
I can only laugh.
You're such a good apologist, you'd make an excellent PR guy for yiddishkeit. Move over, Shafran and Rosenblum-here comes--Ironheart!
Your unique blend of "ernstkeit" and humor would make you a smash hit with The Jewish Observer or the Yated. Artscroll should be banging down your door even as we speak. Just come out of your shell, show them who you really are. You'll be top rebbi at Ohr Somayach and most sought-after Tisha B'av speaker in no time flat, I tell you.
Ironheart--
I understand that your comment is addressed to off the derech, but I would like to comment that comparing Judaism to Chemistry is not a good comparison here, and that the message that is chosen to be relayed by the messenger depends greatly upon the messenger. As far as Judaism and Chemistry: Chemistry is something you can logically prove, empirically find evidence for, and generally understand. Judaism is based largely on leaps of faith and trust in the Rabbis. Desire for hard evidence and/or the presence of untrustworthy Rabbis, therefore, would invalidate Judaism in a second. Not necessarily prove it false, but introduce enough doubt so as to prove it not necessarily correct. From there, further logic, etc can lead to enough evidence of its falsehood. As for the second point, I think it is pretty self-evident. If I give you a message that there is a robber in your home, but I am untrustworthy, the message is invalid. There may or may not be a robber in your home, just as the case would have been had I not given you a message. If I tell a child not to hit even as I slap the child, the message makes no sense. Messenger and message are closely linked and the validity of one is dependent upon the validity of the other.
Just a couple of thoughts.
(Oh, and as for hate and anger, they are also closely linked and often come together. Off the derech may not be confusing the two; he may be feeling the two simultaneously. Emotions often come in groups. Obviously, though, only he knows what he is feeling.)
Shafran and Rosenblum? Please. They don't even return my e-mails anyone. And I stopped buying Artscroll books years ago.
Margo, I appreciate your points but I do disagree to an extent. Remember that, at its foundation, Judaism is based on faith - that God exists (as amply demonstrated in, of all places, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by Douglas Adams) and that He presented the entire Torah, written and oral, to our ancestors who accepted its obligations on themselves. If you believe in God and the revelation at Mt Sinai, everything flows from there, including all the rabbinical developments since then. If you don't, then nothing in Judaism has legitimacy because you don't accept the foundation the rest of the structure is based on.
As for chemistry, well I think the example could work if one considers that there are various levels of knowledge of the subject.
Someone in Grade 9 chemistry has to take for granted that protons and electrons exist even though one cannot see them and any mathemetical equations proving their existence would be beyond the student's grasp. Even at the highest levesl of any given science there are still assumptions that are used to fill in the missing parts of equations. For example, for years black holes were simply assumed to exist because that assumption helped astronomers explain certain phenomena in the universe. It was only relatively recently that concrete proof of their existence actually began to emerge.
Now, in Judaism, life consists of two stages - this one and the next, and in the next one does gain actual empirical evidence of the existence of God, or so we are told. Therefore, in thei life one can still run on the assumption that God exists (of course He does, and this season He's clearly a Bills fan) which legitimizes the rest of the Judaic structure. The concrete proof awaits beyond the grave and it is the hope of every God-fearing Jew that this is indeed the case.
Now, are there religious Jews who act in ways contrary to what the Torah wants? Of course. But to use your example, the robber in the house, even if the person giving the alert is not reliable, that doesn't mean the robber isn't in the house. What it does mean is that you yourself have to go and do some investigating. That requires a lot of reading and a lot of trust that you will, given time, find the information you're looking for.
JP--
Why are you not studying God's wisdom now? How can you be on the internet discoursing with the Psalmist's "fools", when God's wisdom lies in front of you, bound up into the Bible, awaiting your beloved study?
Your hypocrisy repulses me.
Ironheart--
"If you believe in God and the revelation at Mt Sinai, everything flows from there, including all the rabbinical developments since then."
I disagree. Belief in God is a major prerequisite, but also needed are the many beliefs that God spoke to Moses, that Moses wrote down God's words accurately, that Moses taught Joshua accurately, that the Jews were taught accurately, that the Oral Law remained accurate, that Rabbi Yehudah HaNasi chose the correct Rabbis for the Mishna, that Ezra and Nechemia did their job accurately, that every single Rabbi in the Mesorah chain was completely divinely inspired and correct in all he said, that the Rabbis who were excommunicated deserved to be excommunicated and that their opinions are invalid, that the Rabbis in today's times are translating and interpreting the words of the prior Rabbis correctly, and that the present day Rabbis have the authority to deliver psak today. All this is needed to be an Orthodox Jew.
Please note that most of this is based on the Rabbis' divine inspiration and all of it rests on God's existence at all, as you pointed out. Even if I believe in God, Orthodox Judaism does not follow directly from that.
Thus, we have Islam, Christianity, etc as well as sects within Judaism. Nothing on this list or within the Torah follows logically. I can give you myriad examples of where a pshat or drash is only considered valid because the Rabbi said so, and you can logically derive other drashim, too, but they are not valid because the Rabbi did not say so, or disagrees. Logic does not determine interpretation; the authority of the Rabbi determines it. It all boils down to the authenticity and trustworthiness of the Rabbi and all the Rabbis to precede him.
"As for chemistry, well I think the example could work if one considers that there are various levels of knowledge of the subject..."
In the end, though, you can do experiments. If you were bright enough, you could even derive the rules from the hard facts of reality. Or, given the facts and the methods at which others derived the rules, you can repeat the method. This is what science is about. If your experiment cannot be repeated, your results are worthless. No one will simply accept your conclusion; you must explain exactly how you reached the conclusion so that others can reach it, too.
"...there are still assumptions that are used to fill in the missing parts of equations."
Any assumptions that may be used are based exclusively upon evidence and logic and are trashed the moment they are proved incorrect. Nothing is pulled out of the air and nothing that defies evidence can remain.
"We can't figure out what causes lightning? I know, it's God! Or the gods! Or magic fairies! Or you ate too much chocolate and you're stomach is rumbling! Or..." That is not how it works. It's more like, "We can't figure out what causes lightning, but we know this and this...all evidence points to this hypothesis. I wonder if it's correct. Let's test this hypothesis again and again." If a hypothesis is proven wrong, it is retracted. We know only as much as it is possible to know, and we do not make things up because we are desperate for answers. Not having every single answer does not make us wrong; having wrong answers make us wrong. In Judaism, you cannot repeat the experiments, you cannot follow purely by logic, you have answers to everything, even things that do not have any logical or empirically provable answers, and when the evidence contradicts the hypothesis, the evidence is thrown out or cut and pasted to fit. I see no similarities here.
"Now, in Judaism, life consists of two stages - this one and the next, and in the next one does gain actual empirical evidence of the existence of God, or so we are told."
The last four words negate the rest of the sentence. Empirical evidence that does not currently exist is not valid. That statement is self-contradictory.
"But to use your example, the robber in the house, even if the person giving the alert is not reliable, that doesn't mean the robber isn't in the house."
Correct. I believe I pointed that out. The chances of a robber being in your house in this case are the same as they always are. (In this situation, I would not necessarily go check it out; considering the known dishonesty of the man, there may well be a robber in my house, in cahoots with this man who told me so, waiting to bash me over the head as I walk in.) The message means nothing at all. There may be a robber, or there may not, the same as if the man never gave you the message. You may want to check the criminal record of the messenger though, for your own safety; highly advisable, especially with robbers and child-abusing Rabbis.
However, if the untrustworthy messenger tells you something and
you check it out and see no clear evidence for his statement, and he got the message from his crooked buddy, who got the message from a good guy, who got the message from another crooked guy, who was illiterate, but got the message from....You get the idea. In that case, it is ludicrous to consider the idea. You have nothing to support the idea but the words of dishonest men. Why would you even consider that it is true? If I tell you that there is an invisible man sitting next to you whom you cannot sense at all, and I have lied to you before, why would you bother investigating? The claim means zilch, given the lack of solid evidence for the message and the dishonest character of the messenger.
"you will, given time, find the information you're looking for."
Ironheart, people almost always find what they are looking for. If you are looking at a group of birds and wish hard enough to see a monkey, you will begin to see the pattern of a monkey's shape in the colors on a bird's plumage, or perhaps you will see the birds flying in a pattern that resembles the gait of a monkey, or...
Yes, if you have prior biases, you will find facts to support your biases. You can cherry-pick your evidence as you wish, but any intelligent person will laugh at this cherry-picking and wishful thinking.
Good luck with your thoughts. Take care.
JP: You certainly give your religion a good name. A few more comments from you and we'll all be frummer than the pope.
JP: Besides, I don't doubt that the rav who allows you to have the treife internet in your mikdash me'at for "work purposes" has no problem with you fooling around in blogvelt instead.
"In college now just part time, next year full time.
Yeah, I love reading too. What books do you recommend?"
It's good to see that you have a strong curiosity about the world and a thirst for knowledge. Speaking of education and books, there is a book called "The Well-Educated Mind: A Guide to the Classical Education You Never Had" (http://www.amazon.com/Well-Educated-Mind-Guide-Classical-Education/dp/0393050947)
It's basically comprised of two parts. Part I is about how to read a work of classic literature such a novel, a historical work, a biography, etc. Part II gives a list of books in each category that really serve as the backbone of a classical education, which is seldom available in a public schools these days and probably not available in the yeshivish world at all. I went to a public high school and only read a few of these there. I realize these days (and it's been a while since I graduated from college) how important it is to be proficient in classical literature to understand today’s world and even oneself.
OffTheDerech: "Science lab? Naah. Computer lab? Challilah v’Chas!! Hands-on learning-What’s that? Gym?! Fuhgeddabattit."
My school had all of those! You missed out big time on not having a computer lab, that was my favorite!
I think it's just a problem with the boys schools.
About the Rebbeim, unfortunately they weren't that trained and might have done bad things to kids because they were of European mentality or something. But nowadays I think the new young Rebbiem are more normal and are more into chinuch and the proper ways to educate a child. I have to find something I typed up that impressed me very much, you would even be surprised by it. I'll e-mail it when I find it.
I just realized, I have 5 diplomas sitting at home that I need to frame, I never remember showing them to college, so why exactly is the diploma so important? it's supposed to be for yourself to hang up and feel proud of. What counts for college is a transcript sent from the school to the college. They may have a hard time giving it, but they don't have a choice at the end, they can't deny it.
Off the Derech: "Where's all the frum outrage about this? They pretend to go crazy about molestation and shidduch crises etc. How about an educational crisis?"
Well that's because it's not causing you any immediate danger. If somebody is molesting kids, then they are causing physical danger. The shidduch crisis I think doesn't exist, but if you want to say it does, then the importance of fixing it is to continue the next generation of Jews. A person can survive without a college education, but they won't have a family and continue generations, if they can't find a spouse.
IronHeart made a very good point, Judiasm is based on faith, so you have to take the leap of faith in order to take everything the Torah and Rabbim say as fact. You will never get complete proof, because then everyone would be believing.
I also really don't get Jewish Philosopher, something doesn't sound right. Perhaps it is an atheist pretending to be a Jew to get you to hate them more? I know that's twisted. But he says stuff that just doesn't belong and doesn't make sense.
Margo: "that the Rabbis in today's times are translating and interpreting the words of the prior Rabbis correctly, and that the present day Rabbis have the authority to deliver psak today."
First of all, your right that a traditional Jew (as my prof calls it) has to believe in all those things about Moshe and the Torah in order to believe it and follow it. Secular Jews don't have those assumptions and therefore look at it differently, I will get back to your comments on your blog, and talk about it more there, about what I mentioned with that book and apikursus.
About the Rabbi's part, first of all in order for them to paskan anything they need smicha, that gives them the authority, of course it has to be from a trusted source and everything. Next, so long as a person has one Rabbi who had Smicha and is a Yaari Shamayim and means to do well, and sincerely believes that what he is paskuning is right, then even if he's wrong you won't be accountable for what he says. The faith in his ability to paskun correctly is what allows you to not have to worry whether he's correct or not, because in either case you have done your part, and it will all be good.
"believe in God, Orthodox Judaism does not follow directly from that.
Thus, we have Islam, Christianity, etc as well as sects within Judaism."
Not true, and I can prove it to you. It says in the last 10 verses of Devarim that there will never be a navi again that will speak face to face with God. Therefore, there can never be someone who appears and says they got a new revelation from god that there is a new people, new bible or new anything, because G-d said that this is the way it is, and he sealed it by saying there will never be a prophet like Moshe again. So Christianity and Islam and whichever religion that uses the Bible and then claims that they had a prophet who spoke to God and made their religion or whatever, just is impossible based on the bible that they even use.
"Logic does not determine interpretation; the authority of the Rabbi determines it."
That is only partially true, they do follow logic.
(I am so happy I am taking my class now, I can answer so many things now, amazing what they don't teach in HS and really they should)
Ever heard of the 13 principles of Rabbi Yishmael? it's said in shachris by some men once a week or something. Well those 13 things are the 13 principles of logic used to interpret the text and come up with the Rabbinic interpretations, and Hillel used his own 7 logic principals and R' Yishmael's are based on those 7 with more added to them. One of them is the principal of Kal Vichomer, another one is a rule that if the Torah uses a specific example and excludes it from something, then we learn it applies to the general as well.
This helps deal with the contradiction of how many days to eat Matzah on Pesach. Since, in Exodus it says one thing and in Deuteronomy it says another, one says 6 days and one says 7, so then you wonder which is it 6 or 7 days. In another place it says you must eat matzos on the first night. So from here we learn that the first night you have to eat matzos and the other days are optional. But then there's something more to it, which I forgot. I know it didn't end there.
"and when the evidence contradicts the hypothesis, the evidence is thrown out or cut and pasted to fit."
See the difference here is that Judiasm is not science, so there are no hypothesis, they are all taken as fact based on belief, rules to follow and so on. If it doesn't make sense then there is an explanation to help understand it. It's only because it's divine and has to be this way because G-d said it, that we have to try to find answers and fit the puzzle together. By the scientists, because it is not divine, and just an educated guess it can be proven and disproven. The idea of G-d is that what he says is perfect, so there is no dissproving it. You can disbalieve in the whole concept of G-d and everything if you want. But once you believe in it, then you have to fit everything together, everything has to work.
Although there are times when the Rabbi's say stuff and then it changes, Halacha changes, you may wonder why that happens, and I will get back to this, it's a whole long thing and I'm already commenting too much, I'll put that in a separate comment.
Margo: the question is why are the Rabbi's seen to be dishonest and liars? It sounds as though you have the assumption that anything they say is a lie so why trust them. Why aren't they looked at as it least neutral? have they said anything specific which you can prove is a lie?
I will get to my thing about when Halacha changes, if those are what you are referring to. Are you able to open and read this ? If not then I will copy it all over.
Off the Derech: I think JP is messing with you and he isn't a real good Jew like I explained to you. He must be getting some entertainment or something out of this.
Alice:
Thank you so much for the recommendation, and for weighing in.
The book looks excellent, and I will definitely be picking up a copy.
I really appreciate your support, and for your constructive approach to help me, and others in my situation, to move on, and overcome their limitations. It is most appreciated.
I should mention I was worried. I haven't "seen" you around for a while, and was worried I'd lost you. And you're one of my biggest Chassidim! Thank goodness you're back.
Margo:
Thanks for the support, as usual.
Babysitter:
You make many points. I hope you'll understand, but I can I only get around to addressing a few.
>I think JP is messing with you and he isn't a real good Jew like I explained to you. He must be getting some entertainment or something out of this.
I agree with you about JP. Something's not quite right. Now might be as good a time as any to mention that I don't believe there is such a thing as a "good Jew." You're either a good person or you're not. It is my opinion that you, Babysitter, are a good person despite, not because of, the fact that you're Jewish. JP, on the other hand, is neither a good Jew, nor a good person.
Now about education.
>I think it's just a problem with the boys schools.
I partially agree. Boys' yeshivas are generally stricter religiously than girls'. However, let's not pretend girls' schools don't have similar problems. Just ask Margo or FGGS and you'll hear plenty of horror stories of girls' schools doing everything possible to prevent their graduates from continuing their education, too.
>About the Rebbeim, unfortunately they weren't that trained and might have done bad things to kids because they were of European mentality or something. But nowadays I think the new young Rebbiem are more normal and are more into chinuch and the proper ways to educate a child.
Such wishful thinking! Things will just change overnight! If only!
Their educational system barely changes anything ever, and you think just b/c rebbeim are "younger" they'll do anything differently?
"Nowadays"? What do you think, I went to yeshiva fifty years ago?!
>What counts for college is a transcript sent from the school to the college. They may have a hard time giving it, but they don't have a choice at the end, they can't deny it.
I was planning on avoiding my personal sob stories, as they're not quite relevant to the big picture. Now that you mention it...
My school doesn't have transcripts. I passed every class right through twelfth grade (except one) and they are using that excuse (the one failed class) to not give me a diploma. And their arrangement is with an out-of-state school to issue "diplomas" upon request. My school asks for it, they get it. To the best of my knowledge, all my report cards are worthless. I meant it when I said, for all practical purposes, I've never attended high school.
So I got a GED, which is the only reason I have a "survival" job. And I've received assistance through some wonderful organizations for youth so I'm currently enrolled in a university part-time as part of a bridging program for mature students/underprivileged people (who dropped out of high school). If I pass, then I'm guaranteed a spot in a liberal arts program next year. So if all goes well, I should be enrolled in university full-time shortly before my 24th birthday.
Thanks, yeshiva.
> they didn’t even bother with the charade after December of twelfth grade. Just learn in the Beis Medrash, we were told. (Saves money, I’m guessing.)
I think you're on to something when you say it is a money saving device. They don't respect secular learning AND they can't pay the bills it's no wonder you didn't have any labs. :(
Lubab no More:
Thanks for weighing in.
No argument here! :)
Off the Derech: your right a person is good or bad based on if they are good or bad, plain and simple. But there is such a thing as a good Jew, or a righteous Jew you can call it, someone who being good in their Jewishness. A good person and a good Jew mean different things. where in the second one the good is an adjective to describe the noun Jew. Not that a person can't be good without being a Jew, just an explanation of what type of Jew they are. Righteous is probably a better word for it.
perhaps, but that is not saying they are giving a bad education. You have to understand that there are all different types of schools. When you sign up for one it's because you agree with the way they teach. People purposefully want the type of education the school is providing, and they would be unhappy if it was any other way, so the school is satisfying them. Their goal is for those types of people. There are other school's more education oriented where they provide for those needs. That's why HS is a time when people change school's. They pick one based on where they see themselves going in the future.
Well it's not really overnight, it is 20 years later. lol, I don't mean such a long time ago as if your a grandfather. But even over 10 years things have changed. The older generation is fading out and the new Rebbiem are coming in. I can compare the Rebbiem my older brother had to the ones my little brother had, their exactly 10 years apart, and there is such a world of a difference in the way they are being educated. My older brother always had complaints, there might of even been stories of where the Rebbiem or principal hit the children, they hated the principal they called him names and it was just horrible. Yet they lived through it. Now my younger brother has such great teachers and everything. I'll give you an example, my father has a deal where he pays test money for good marks. So my little brother wanting some money goes over to his english teacher and asks her to make up a science test for him to take, she asks why he wants a test, and he said cause then if he gets a good mark he will get money, she laughed and actually made the test for him, and he got a 100. The teacher didn't tell the principal on him or punish him for being "chutzpadik" instead she actually went a long with it and helped him feel good about himself. He is also in a different school than my older brother went to, but even so the school's are more kid oriented now, and more understanding and less punishing and threatening.
I admire you for going through all that trouble to be able to go to college, show's its valuable to you. You can thank the Yeshiva for the opportunity of working so hard to get something you want. But really, perhaps there had been another school that would have been more education oriented in the first place.
"I haven't "seen" you around for a while..."
Thanks for noticing. Don't have much time to blog these days, but I do check your blog at least a few times a week. I just don't always have a chance to comment :)
BTW, if you do decide to brush up on your classic literature you'll have a huge advantage in that you are probably very familiar with the Torah. Most classic literature is full of biblical allusions. This of course includes the "second testament”. The bible is also considered a work of classic literature, and as you probably figure, it’s probably the most influential piece of literature in the history of man.
In fact, one of the ways in which you can approach filling in the gaps in your education is by reading the works that have had the greatest influence on humankind or by simply learning about them and how they influenced human thought and ultimately history. Wikipedia has a pretty good list of them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Most_Influential_Books_Ever_Written
It’s a daunting task, and a lifetime commitment. It requires historical context, and strong analytical skills. But I think if you’re curious enough and take smalls steps you can do it Even if you cover a small number of them or just read the cliff notes you’ll be better off.
Here's the link again:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Most_Influential_Books_Ever_Written
don't think it all got posted the first time
Can't seem to post the link. Just google "100 Most Influential Books Ever Written"
Hang on, if you're looking for good books to read, I must recommend the ones I appear in as a character:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/search-handle-url?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books-ca&field-author=Michael%20J.%20Schweitzer
They're great books and the author is a hell of a nice guy and worthy of your support. Also, they're great books. Did I mention that?
Alice: don't worry the link went through. here's a clickable version of your link
Ironheart's book link
Alice:
It's great to know you're still a chassid! ;)
If you have a blog, I'd love to check it out!
I checked out the list and liked it. Definitely going to keep it handy.
I must say, love the way you're approaching this. There are few better ways to understand the world and indeed, ourselves, than to read history's most influential books. For example, Mein Kampf (horror of horrors!) has had a major impact on human history, regardless of its quality. So reading influential books enhances our understanding of human history, while quality books will simply enhance our appreciation for good literature.
Thanks.
Yeshivas dont care to give secular eduaction and even encourage to kids to drop out of the secular education. But dont worry soon the whole only torah no work theory will collapse on itself.
Garnel: Now that your book has vaulted to bestseller status as a direct result of exposure on this blog, I get some kind of commission? ;)
"So reading influential books enhances our understanding of human history, while quality books will simply enhance our appreciation for good literature".
You said it better than I did!
"If you have a blog, I'd love to check it out!"
I don't :(
No time to blog, but I do LOVE reading them!
Alice:
>You said it better than I did!
Thanks:) Such devotion to the "rebbe"! ;)
>No time to blog...
Could I please get your email address then? I'm offthederech@yahoo.com (No pressure)
I just sent you an email
Alice:
Thanks so much for emailing!
Maybe we can have "shiurim" both ways? :)
Babysitter:
Thanks for all the technical help.
Off the Derech: you're welcome.
But I just have a question, how come your accepting of reading classical literature that may not be written well, just because of the content that counts. But yet with the Jewish text you had a problem with this, that you say their not giving a good education.
Babysitter:
I don't mind reading the Bible the same way I don't mind reading "Mein Kampf." But one reading is enough. I wouldn't spend every waking moment of my life thinking about either one. (In yeshiva, all we were expected to do was learn Torah.)
Off the Derech: I understand you felt like it was coming out of your ears already.
But you do understand that for those that believe in the value of Torah then this wasn't an issue for them. Or perhaps they also got restless, but I would think they understood the reason of why they were learning it all the time.
Hi, OTD.
As a former yeshiva high school teacher, I wish I could say that you're wrong, but you're not. There are many yeshivas that don't provide a decent education to their students and I'm sorry that you got stuck in one of them. Of course, there are many yeshivas that do provide a good or excellent secular education (I attended one; now my son is attending another.) Yeshiva is like any other consumer product: if the customers (the parents) demand quality and refuse to pay for lack of quality, then the product would improve. This is another case where parents need to stand up and fight for the good of their children instead of blindly accepting an unsatisfactory status quo.
Super Raizy--
I agree with you, but I would like to add that the Jewish communities that have a substandard education system often do not care about or even look down upon a secular education. The parents are not "blindly accepting"; they are actively creating a system that helps to ensure that their children do not venture out of the bubble, even as adults.
My school was not quite as bad as OTD's; we had computer lab and a semi-decent science lab, but only because the school was accredited and had to maintain a certain standard to receive government money. However, they told us time and time again that evolution is garbage, they chopped out whole sections of the science books, and then they went back to the innocuous sections and used a Sharpie to color in any non-tznius person. They refused to teach us most literary classics and had us reading 8th grade books in 12th grade.
Oh, and when I received top notch grades in all of my secular classes, they pressured me to lower them. It's a self-regulating system to make sure the kids do not have sufficient knowledge or skills to attend a good secular college or get a good secular job, and thus remain in the bubble.
So the problem is much worse than you describe. Perhaps you live in a more modern, open-minded community, but many closed communities exist, and to deny that is foolish.
Superraizy, Margo:
Thanks both for your feedback.
I want to stress that the problem was less about quality, more about ideals.
What the school lacked in limudei chol, they more than made up for in limudei kodesh. Their rebbeim were supposedly "top stuff." They weren't lazy, or poorly organized, and they charged plenty money, too.
It was just that they had their priorities messed up. They'd use their hashkafos to justify gross neglect of secular study.
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