"[Religion] may be okay between consenting adults in private, but should not be taught to young children." --Francis Crick. Nothing to do with anything, but I liked it.
I thought I'd discuss morality.
As you know, morality is one of the last "strongholds" of religion. As modern day science has pretty much obliterated any need to be religious, the desperate power-hungry rabbis hang on to, wait for it, morality. Yes, religion may be one big lie, BUT IT MAKES PEOPLE DO GOOD! and don't you forget it.
Strangely enough, I almost never heard that argument in twenty years of growing up in your, uh, community. (I guess growing up in the ghetto you lose that myth pretty fast.) We were frum because that was the right way to live, full stop. I even remember my rosh yeshiva hammering home the point that Pirkei Avos, that great book of ethics, wasn't to be followed because it was the right thing to do. Chas v'shalom! That's a goyishe zach, morAlity, feh! Weren't the Germans themselves before the war very much cultured and moral? See where that leads you? (Here the rosh yeshiva would take a long, thoughtful look around the class.) Aderabba! You followed it because it was the word of God! Any questions?? Like most things in halacha, they don't have to make sense (like, ever), they're basically arbitrary. You follow them because you're God's slave. Any other questions?? Good.
Anyway, most of the "proofs" I've had the misfortune of being subjected to over the course of my life had to do with Har Sinai, intelligent design, or some other such crap. The fact that I've heard so few similar arguments out here (blogosphere), and almost all on the subject of morality, says something about the desperation of Garnel and his rabbi cronies in trying to hold on to power, er, a religion, that's slipping right through their fingers.
It's kind of funny how, out here, things are all of a sudden "Divinely inspired" and "true because I believe they are" and whatever other nonsense Garnel spews. Religion is important because of morality! Be frum so you can be moral again! You'd think they were Reform or something. Look, I have nothing against Humanistic Judaism, but I'm afraid I don't have a lot of background in it.
Besides, I strongly object to the claim that religion spawned morality. (I can certainly see why rabbis might claim it, though. They wouldn't have an agenda. Hell no.) I think morality is more or less a by-product of common sense (in short supply among fundamentalists), and I'm a firm believer that people are moral despite, not because of, religion (especially when they turn around and AUTOMATICALLY accuse me of being immoral - for not believing in the same things they do. Sorry folks, I don't believe in your cookie monster. You'll just have to deal with it). I mean, religion does do a lot to instill a protective, tribal sense of community, which is definitely not morality, but teamwork, at best (and then watch how they treat the out-groups). I even made the point a while back on this blog that leaving religion made me a more moral person as I no longer had reason, or an excuse, to favor one group over another, and found it easier to treat people as equals. The kneejerk defensive reaction by Garnel to that statement, plus the fact that he denied it, is probably sufficient evidence that it's true.
Let's face it: Your religion has two major components: person to person, and person to god (yes, bein adam lachaveiro and bein adam lamakom). If you could chuck the god stuff, I'm all for it. Incidentally, Christianity was all about that. As it happens, I think Christianity is ten times cooler than Judaism. The problem, my friends, is you're so hung up on the god stuff, and even think the person to person stuff is based on the god stuff. No thanks. You can have it. All yours.
This may not have much to do with morality, but I feel it needs to be said. You're so quick to look at results, but so hesitant to look at causes. He's a terrorist. She's a shiksa. He's a mechalel shabbos (me? nahh). They're holy. How about why someone does something? Like, for example, instead of judging someone for no longer being religious, how about searching to find out if the "truths" you believe in are in fact true?
Or you can continue blaming them, judging them, calling them names, and treating them like shit. And then wonder why they fail, when you've set them up to do precisely that, all because you're too afraid to challenge the tenets of your beliefs (or like Garnel, too cowardly to admit you're an atheist) and you lionize people for not making the same assumptions you do. Hey, I understand everyone needs a scapegoat, but this is getting old.
Maybe it's time you stopped killing each other out over a fucking book.
Religion. The greatest, and most often overlooked, source of human suffering in the world.
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17 comments:
Idiots. The greatest, and most often overlooked, source of human suffering in the world.
But seriously(can you even start a sentence with but?)I would venture that religion and the idea that there is a binding higher power acts as a counter force to our biases and radicalization due to choice blindness, plus there is the added benefit of the placebo, i.e. the fact that we believe it to be true helps us with the application.
(http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20227046.400-choice-blindness-you-dont-know-what-you-want.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18925401.300-is-religion-a-placebo.html).
We humans are very amenable to change and capricious judgmental errors, the question I put forward to you; is there some sort of self correcting system for an atheist? Is there some sort of cognitive process that helps with the application?
(I ask in sincerity, not in a condescending manner)
It shouldn't be unexpected that the nature of the arguments used to support frumkeit change based on context. If one is dealing with people who are reasonably confident that the Written and Oral laws are really given by God then an appeal to God's authority makes sense. Moral arguments make more sense when one isn't certain about that.
"Incidentally, Christianity was all about that."
Keyword being WAS. A lot of what you said about frum Jews could easily be applied to many Christians. At least with Orthodox Jews they just want only Jews to conform. A good chunk of Christians (in the US at least) want everyone to be like them.
RP: Typical frum argument. I don't buy it. Look at the numbers of atheistic societis like Norway. There is absolutely no reason to believe religion is necessary for people to behave in a normal fashion. Sure, societies like Afghanistan and frum communities that have been dependent on religion for so long would have a difficult time adjusting to life if their religion was taken from them, but that by no means means they can't or shouldn't be weaned off their religion, nor does it mean thei religion is good or moral in any way.
HH: Just so you know, I will not be publishing any further comments from you on this thread. I'm this close to banning you for good.
Ah, meant HH from the other thread.
http://offthed.blogspot.com/2009/04/brilliant-post.html
Ok, HH. I overreacted, because yes, I'm still pissed off at you for going Holocaust on the last thread. There should be an official rule on blogosphere that anything to do with the Holocaust is off-limits. End of story.
Anyway, I emailed you back your comment, and if you re-post it, I'll be glad to publish it.
I always call someone an idiot before I ask him an honest, non-condescending question. I find it helps with the dialogue.
I agree with a lot of what you have said, otd, but I would qualify your comments by saying that it isn't merely religious, but any deeply held belief system that demands people shut off their empathy.
There's the great triad of death of the twentieth century--communism, fascism, nazism. There's the folks who argue for pure capitalism at all costs--and justify this by dehumanizing the poor. There are those who pervert (imho) atheism into a belief system that devalues religious people.
And then there's all the various religions with their fun and creative ways of tormenting and killing people.
I'm with Ferris Buehler on this one, I guess. But most religions or non-theistic belief systems can be harmless enough, and even good, if one is cautious about them. They're kind of like fire that way.
As it happens, I think Christianity is ten times cooler than Judaism. Really?
Cipher - I guess I just haven't had any bad experiences with them yet.
OTD, just wait. It shouldn't take that long. Your experiences will likely be not as extreme since you aren't spending all your time around the extremist Christians but they are about as bad and in some ways worst.
Great post OTD. I agree that morality is mostly common sense.
About your Christianity point - I would also prefer many forms of Christianity over Orthodox Judaism, but I don't think Judaism as a whole is worse than Christianity. There are many fundamentalist Christians that are every bit as hateful as the worst frum Jews, and Christianity has a much bloodier history than Judaism (at least over the last 2000 years).
AP: I don't think it's fair to compare Christianity to Judaism that way. They've historically had *much* greater numbers, power, and influence. It's apples and oranges. Kind of like saying Tanzania has a better economy than the U.S. because they have less debt.
It's only a matter of time before you see these types on your college campus.
http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper247/stills/788aot79.jpg
OTD, That's a very good point. And we can see from what happens in insular charedi communities that when Orthodoxy is given too much power bad stuff happens very quickly. I suspect that if we could rewind the clock 2000 years and make Christianity stay a small segment and make Judaism become larger we'd likely see the almost exact reverse in atrocity rates.
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