Good evening,
I have just started to research this subject, as my younger brother 22 has been sucked in by the religious Jews. We were both raised in a modern orthodox home- went to temple on holidays, had the bar and bat mitzvah, and just enjoyed being jewish... nothing too serious. It is now starting to get out of hand. I am trying to find any information to give to my parents that can help...
If you can offer any advice I would be very appreciative...
-C
Tuesday, June 16, 2009
Request for Help
I received this email from a concerned sibling. Her brother recently got involved in the yeshiva community, while they come from a less insular background. If anyone has any advice for her (no frum comments, thank you), please indicate so in the comments below.
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35 comments:
Well, I got "sucked in" when I was about 22, and I can just tell you: trust him. He has his own ideas, he has his upbringing, he has his education. Even if he now experiences with more orthodox ways, he still is the same person he was before and will eventually fall back on his feet.
I would have wished that my family had understood my choice. So listen to him, if he wants to talk about his experiences, but don't critise (too much). Don't make it a mission to "debrief" him or to "get him out", since this could completely destroy the relationship you have with him. Stay close to him, try also to find common areas of interest that are not linked to religion. Don't insult his "guru" or his "religion". But do not either give in to his pleas that you change your ways if he wants you to.
In general, "wanting to get him out by force" backfires. In my case it made my religious convictions much stronger and destroyed the relationship with my parents, so they got exactely the contrary of what they wanted. You rather have to "stand next to the fruit tree and wait till the fruit falls down all by itself", and catch it in the right moment. This is only possible if you stay close, this is only possible if you do not argue (too much).
(This is what cult specialists recommand in such situations in general).
And don't forget: it is part of his religious freedom to choose this way of life.
You should make it very clear to him that he should earn his own money and support his own family (in the Ketuba, he signs that he will support his wife and children, even if they have to take his shirt from his back). But he has the freedom of choosing his way of life. If he chooses orthodox judaism, why not.
You never know the motivations that push him to do it. They might be justified and he might get what he needs in his new environment.
In my case, it was a longing for big, extended families, for a tigh-knitted community where I would belong, since my family moved away from my hometown when I was a child. At the same time, I loved jewish learning, the kind of text analysis that was done there.
Hey, I said no frum comments.
i wish I knew, I'm in the exact same situation (except my brother is 21). Only in addition to becoming super religious, my brother has now become a super passive aggressive asshole to me cause I'm not religious.
OTD- come on, seriously? That wasn't a mean or disrespectful comment! If you keep censoring people simply because they disagree with you, you're as bad as them.
AE: I don't censor people. It's a private blog. I just expect my wishes to be respected. On this post, I specifically requested no frum comments, and I believe Shoshi is frum.
Anyway, it's not a big deal (Shoshi's no radical), and I have no intention of deleting her comment, but I see no reason not to protest.
How do you know I am frum now?
What I said has nothing to do with "frum" it's just basic:
Don't start to argue because of it.
>How do you know I am frum now?
Let's just say I'm talented at sniffing out frummies. (:
22 is a lot better than at age 18. I suspect he is in Israel now, yes? Get him back, everything will be fine.
Yes, you are right: I am frum now, so I won't comment on this blog any more.
Give him a few years. A lot (most?) folks who get sucked in come to their senses within a couple of years. If he doesn't, well, it's his life, right?
Unfortunately, this is a growing problem. Shaul Magid, a professor of Jewish Studies and Conservative rabbi, wrote an article about it last fall: http://www.newvilnareview.com/features/is-there-an-orthodox-war-against-modern-orthodoxy-.html
My family isn't at all observant or Jewishly connected, but one of my young cousins has become heavily involved in Chabad. He's a shliach-in-training now (I guess; I don't really understand the ins and outs of their various programs, and the story seems to change every time I talk to him). He knows I disapprove; I want him to go to college and lead a more secular life, but I don't get anywhere by arguing with him. I suggested he go to YU; he says it's too liberal (!) theologically, and in addition, he's heard stories that the young men there "get away" with all sorts of stuff. (Meanwhile, I've met Rabbi Mayer Twersky, one of the Rosh Yeshivas, who has one of the sternest-looking punims I've ever seen. I can't imagine what those boys could be "getting away" with! And if they are "getting away" with anything, more power to them; it's a testimony to their ingenuity!)
Furthermore, he's placed his mother, my cousin, who has no money, in a lot of debt; she's had to take out loans she really can't afford in order to pay for his "education". I'm really pretty pissed off about it. (I'm also pissed off at her for doing it, but in that branch of the family, they can't say "no" to their kids. My parents, unfortunately, had no such problem!)
There's probably no formula for handling a situation such as this one. If he cares about your parent's opinion, they could express disapproval, but it might serve to push him further away. If they're supporting him, they could threaten to cut him off, financially, but the frummies would probably just find him employment, and it would only have the effect of creating a greater distance.
A friend, who was a dorm matron at Harvard, told me that in her experience, a lot of young people go through this sort of thing, and that in few years, he could very well outgrow it. I explained to her that the difference between this situation and similar situations in other religions is that in a few years, they'll have him married with a couple of kids; then it may be too late.
The only advice I can give without knowing the family is advice given to me by a professor at YU - don't cut off the lines of communication. Let him know you're there for him, and don't pick fights about religion. You mentioned that your family is MO, but qualified it by saying "went to temple on holidays, had the bar and bat mitzvah, and just enjoyed being jewish... nothing too serious." That sounds to me more like suburban Conservative or Reform. If your family is more along the lines of "Conservadox", you might consider making shul attendance a more regular affair, at least while he's home. If your shul isn't Orthodox, find one that is. If it is, but it's boring, consider going to another one (if one is available) that's more lively, or more intense - whatever it is that he seems to find attractive about the black hat world.
One thing I tried with my cousin was introducing him to friends who are MO, a highly-educated rabbinic couple who don't live a cloistered lifestyle. I wanted him to see that one could be strictly observant and embrace education and secular culture. It didn't really work with him, but there are other issues involved. Perhaps this approach would work with your brother.
Try to be optimistic. He's young, and nothing is written in stone.
Thanks everyone for the comments.
Personally, I think kiruv is dangerous because the members have a lot of passion, and they're very good at what they do. I think people are particularly vulnerable after a life-changing episode (or is it life-altering experience?), because their guard is down and their self-esteem may be lower. Instead of a dull professor rambling on about biology, they may prefer some mystical rabbi dude discuss metaphysical concepts that usually sound fascinating (to the uninitiated). Unfortunately, there aren't many people that have a lot of insider knowledge of the kiruv system who work to battle it, so there aren't enough resources (yet) with which to combat kiruv.
They will try to "sweeten the deal" by offering scholarships and other impressive-sounding offers, (but expect them to be highly exagerrated - "you don't *have* to pay, but surely you want to?!") that serve the dual impact of lending them credibility, as well as flattering the prospective recruit (to make him feel very welcome, at first). Remember, the rabbis have a lot of training and they're very passionate about what they do. They take their missionizing duties extremely seriously. Also (BTW), think of it as a self-contained cult, that has very little need for outside resources. Their main tools are probably ego-stroking, and speaking in riddles. Unusual advice, but that's the way I roll.
Anyway, C, I'll enable anonymous comments, so if you'd like to respond to any of the comments, you'll be able to. Peace out.
Relevant links:
http://leahdubin.blogspot.com/
http://kvetcher.net/category/kiruv/
http://offthed.blogspot.com/2009/04/critique-of-kiruv.html
Sorry Mookie, I had to delete that comment.
You know this is not the time and place to discuss the pros and cons of kiruv. There are many other places to debate that. This post is one of them. This is not the time and place to discuss that.
Shoshi is spot on. And not just for practical reasons. Staying in touch and continuing to be respectful isn't just a good strategy: it is the right thing to do. Disagreements over religion and similar issues are not worth enough to break up families over them.
My personal approach would be to keep referring to Schneerson as Jesus for obvious reasons if that were my brother (I would also do other stuff like bombarding my bro with secular movies & music & books), but, as a disclaimer, I have no experience in that kinda of a situation, use what I would do at 100% your own risk.
I have more than a few stories about this topic. I always told my friends that I didn't have a problem if they wanted to do this. If they wanted to live that way, no big deal.
The core was always whether they wanted it.
are you kidding me?? my comment wasnt about kiruv it was about families respecting eachothers right to make choices. how is it any different than what joshua said?? all i said was that whether your a frum person and your brother goes off, or your a secular person and you brother goes on - let them be! its not your choice or decision. live and let live.
Look Mookie, I felt your comment was off-topic. If you felt differently, I apologize. Not for enforcing my rules, but for the fact that we're on different wavelengths.
But since it means a lot to you, I'll paste the entirety of your comment here. Okay?
"I really have a hard time understanding this letter from a concerned sister and some of the comments. I’m not going to defend the benefits of kiruv, I have my own views about it (some positive, some negative) but what im really perplexed by is this attitude I keep coming across of trying to control what lifestyles and beliefs others should have.
I can understand someone who doesn’t want to be frum, who goes otd, who has no interest in any of it. I can understand someone who disagrees with religion and is zealously atheist. We’re all entitled to our views.
But I cant understand the high degree of contempt for those who choose to live their life differently.
Before someone screams out that orthodox Judaism is a cult, let’s keep things in perspective. Maybe there are some aspects that can be seen as cult like – but I doubt anyone truly believes that anyone who starts to keep shabbos or goes to aish is suddenly in danger. Especially if they are happy and aren’t harming anyone.
Every person in my family has a different level of religious observance – from none, to fully observant. We still manage to have family dinners, mother’s day celebrations, birthdays… we sometimes discuss these things, but in general we agree that not everything needs to be discussed – we’re all adults, we have our own personal social circles where religion (or lack of) is shared, and this doesn’t need to be an issue at every family gathering. Respect of each other’s choices, even if we STRONGLY disagree is really important.
I’m curious, C – why are you so bothered/afraid? Are you worried for the safety of your sibling, or are you just really troubled by the fact that he’s changing the family dynamic? Would it be any different if a sibling came out as being gay, or moved to Australia, or became a vegan? As family members grow up, they move on their own path – why not respect that?"
You should see what advice you would probably give to This Poster and apply it to yourself!
PS and there is no need to call yourself Modern Orthodox when it's obvious you are not (based on the language you use), this is not an Orthodox site.
very cool of you to post my comment :)
and.. no need to apologize for being on different wavelengths. thats the reason i read this blog.
I know you said no frum posters and you can delete my comment if you want, but my family is very modern and when I wanted to become more right wing, my parents made fun of me and called the the rebiitzen and when I would fail at observing something, my mother would make sure that I was aware that she knew I had failed. This was extremly strange as my parents are usually very supportive. This started pushing me away from them and I started turning to hurting myself as a way to cope with the pain I felt. But eventually my parents came to realize that I am allowed to make my own decisions and I try to keep my veiws to myself and they agree to respect me as long as I stick to my convictions and leave them out of it. Whatever you do, think before you speak, because words will cut your brother deeper than you realize. Be supportive of other aspects of hsi life and don't lose the bond you have with him.
"We were both raised in a modern orthodox home- went to temple on holidays, had the bar and bat mitzvah, and just enjoyed being jewish... "
That's a description of a Reform lifestyle, not a Modern Orthodox one. What's the deal?
i would suggest that in general people are not "duped" into the kiruv - but that folks hit an age - low to mid 20s - and want to seek out more meaning in their life - this frum orthodox stuff fits the bill. you are confusing logic/reason with emotion and feelings (which is what is being searched out)
bankman
I think Shoshi's comment offers some very good advice. Ultimately it is your brother's choice and the best thing you can do is try to keep him close. It will probably be a whole lot more productive than SJ's suggestions (LOL!)
The best way to resolve this matter is to give him arguments for why his fundamentalist religion is flat out false.
For instance how can he reconcile Torah MiSinai with this:
what do we do if there are discrepancies between all the Torah scrolls.
Here is rabbinical insight on the subject:
Maimonides (Rambam), Hilkhot Sefer Torah 8, 4:
Since I have seen great confusion in all the scrolls [of the Law] in these matters, and also the Masoretes who wrote [special works] to make known [which sections are] "open" and "closed" contradict each other, according to the books on which they based themselves, I took it upon myself to set down here all the sections of the Law, and the forms of the Songs [i.e. Ex.15, Deut.32], so as to correct the scrolls accordingly. The copy on which we based ourselves in these matters is the one known in Egypt, which contains the whole Bible, which was formerly in Jerusalem [serving to correct copies according to it]. Everybody accepted it as authoritative, for Ben Asher corrected it many times. And I used it as the basis for the copy of the Torah Scroll which I wrote according to the Halakha.
If you think Maimonides' testimony was grim, wait 'til you read the rest:
RaMaH (R. Meir Ben Todros HaLevi) in his introduction to Masoret Seyag LaTorah:
...All the more so now that due to our sins, the following verse has been fulfilled amongst us, "Therefore, behold, I will again do a marvelous work among this people, Even a marvelous work and a wonder; And the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, And the prudence of their prudent men shall be hid"(Is. 29:14). If we seek to rely on the proofread scrolls in our possession, they are also in great disaccord. Were it not for the Masorah which serves as a fence around the Torah, almost no one would find his way in the controversies between the scrolls. Even the Masorah is not free from dispute, and there are several instances disputed [among the Masorah manuscripts], but not as many as among the scrolls. If a man wishes to write a halakhically "kosher" scroll, he will stumble on the plene and defective spellings and grope like a blind man through a fog of controversy; he will not succeed. Even if he seeks the aid of someone knowledgeable, he will not find such a one. When I, R. Meir HaLevi Ben Todros of Spain, saw what had befallen the scrolls, the Masorah lists, and the plene and defective spelling traditions, due to the ravages of time, I felt the need to search after the most precise and proofread codices and the most reliable Masoretic traditions, to resolve the conflicts. The newly-produced scrolls should be abandoned in favor of older, more faithful ones and among these the majority of texts should be followed as commanded in the Torah to decide any controversy, as it is written: "After the multitude to do..."(Ex. 23:2).
It gets darker:
R. Yom Tov Lippman Milhausen, in his work Tikkun Sefer Torah:
Because of our many sins, the Torah has been forgotten and we can not find a kosher Torah scroll; the scribes are ignoramuses and the scholars pay no attention in this matter. Therefore I have toiled to find a Torah scroll with the proper letters, open and closed passages, but I have found none, not to mention a scroll which is accurate as to the plene and defective spellings, a subject completely lost to our entire generation. In all these matters we have no choice [i.e. we are halakhically considered anusim]; but how to write the correct forms of the letters we do know and their laws are like that of tefillin. Thus if we allow the ignorant scribes to continue to follow their usual practices [in shaping the letters], here we sin on purpose [mezidin].
Don't really think so. Who knows what Maimonides and the two other Rabbis didn't disclose to the general public. Maimonides, in fact, when writing to the Jews of Yemen, lied to them by saying that there exist no discrepancies at all between all the Torah scrolls of the world, not even in vowelization. Obviously, this was to keep their faith up. Disclosing what he knew to them could've really shaken their faith. Do you know why he said that there existed no differences even in vowelization? It is because the Yemenite Jews were exposed to the polemics of the Muslims regarding the Torah's authencity.
Just give him that. IF you need more arguments against Orthodoxy then just ask
you really think there is any argument a kiruv rabbi will not be able to handle? do you think there is any argument a frum person can make to change your mind about your views?
arguing with someone about their belief system by bringing in "proof" never works. people stick to their views when confronted. the only way anyone will ever change his mind is if they go and seek out the info on their own.
the only reason these are arguments are more effective today than they were in the past is that people can go on the internet and research them on their own. i bet most otd's today would not have been as easily convinced by these 'proofs' in the past if they had heard them in an argument with a non believer.
>you really think there is any argument a kiruv rabbi will not be able to handle?
Yes.
>do you think there is any argument a frum person can make to change your mind about your views?
Maybe.
>arguing with someone about their belief system by bringing in "proof" never works. people stick to their views when confronted.
That's called a defeatist attitude. Even if someone decides they're not open to convincing, doesn't give them a right to prevent others from doing so.
>the only reason these are arguments are more effective today than they were in the past is that people can go on the internet and research them on their own. i bet most otd's today would not have been as easily convinced by these 'proofs' in the past if they had heard them in an argument with a non believer.
Yes, the intenet makes it easier for people to question. So what?
OTD:
i didnt ask if there's an argument a kiruv rabbi cant disprove. i asked if there's an argument he wouldnt have an answer to, and the answer is no. there's a counter argument to ANY argument.
>That's called a defeatist attitude. Even if someone decides they're not open to convincing, doesn't give them a right to prevent others from doing so.
of course anyone has the right to try and convince someone else, im not denying that. what im saying is that it's not an effective way to try and change someone's mind. when poeple are confronted, by nature they become defensive and defend their way of life.
>Yes, the intenet makes it easier for people to question. So what?
so the internet is a more effective way of making someone hear/see a different perspective. arguing isnt effective in changing someone's mind - what works is when a person, on their own, discovers something. the internet is a safe place to question your views because you dont feel defensive - therefore its more effective.
my point was that these arguments were around long before the internet, but when they were used in the past, most people reacted by getting defensive and sticking to their guns. today most otd's came across these arguments, on their own, through the internet, and so they were less prone to stonewall them.
m00kie:
why are you discussing more effective ways of drawing poele away from torah??
>i didnt ask if there's an argument a kiruv rabbi cant disprove. i asked if there's an argument he wouldnt have an answer to, and the answer is no. there's a counter argument to ANY argument.
Okay.
>of course anyone has the right to try and convince someone else, im not denying that. what im saying is that it's not an effective way to try and change someone's mind. when poeple are confronted, by nature they become defensive and defend their way of life.
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Is it a perfect medium? No. What should I do, open a yeshiva?? That's the beauty of the internet and democracy: if someone wants to seek out kiruv stuff, they have that choice. If they want to seek out kfira, they can do that too. I wonder what a little freedom will do to religion.
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