Thursday, July 9, 2009
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39 comments:
This seems like far more effort than it is worth. Much of what JP is so incredibly wrong that it is better to just leave him alone. JP is the strongest argument one can imagine against his worldview.
i cant for the life of me understand why "you poeple" give "those poeple" that much importance. you might hate judaism, you might hate orthodoxy, you might hate g-d, you may hate theism... but you can't possibly believe his type represents anything but lunacy! stop feeding these @#$%$ trolls!
oops
that was me
Mookie: I don't hate anyone.
I like the blog. It's started by someone named "DrJ" someone who's read JP for a long time, and has had many arguments with him in the comments. I like forward to reading his opinions regardless, but I think it makes for a nice theme for his blog.
Perhaps it isn't worth the effort, but I thought it would be fun, as long as there is active dialogue. I'll see how it goes.
Jeff
DrJ: I think it's a great idea. It would be especially great if you discuss JP's personality, etc and not just his opinions. Things like his taste in music, quirks, etc. I can't say it would be nice, but it would be wildly popular.
DrJ,
While I applaud any effort to discredit (and even silence) Jacob Stein, I'm not sure that treating his "arguments' as though they have any validity whatsoever is the way to go. He's obviously dangerously insane, and his diatribes reflect that.
I've largely stopped perusing the Jewish blogs, and a large part of the reason is that many of them tolerate his presence. Although most people ignore him, some of the moderators attempt to engage him, as though he were capable of rational discourse. I've asked a number of times why everyone puts up with his presence; I've never received an answer. I have to chalk this up to the wagons-in-a-circle mentality so often exhibited by the frum. As bad as he is, he's still "one of us" - and I can't tell you how offensive I find this. I suppose one ought to have compassion, but he's so utterly vile that I've found it impossible. As far as I know, OTD is the only Jewish blogger who's had the testicular fortitude to ban him.
As I've told OTD, the thing that bothers me the most about Stein is that he doesn't exist in a vacuum. Somewhere, there's a rabbi who has to be at least partially aware of his activities; there's a minyan that welcomes him. Apparently, no one in his sphere of influence is attempting to curb him. This is how it is with fundamentalists; as long as he validates the belief system, they don't really care how he behaves, especially if his "crime" merely involves being cruel to unbelievers.
This, in itself, constitutes one of the best arguments against Orthodoxy (and Christian and Islamic fundamentalism, for that matter). It isn't so much what these people say; it's the fact that they are even allowed to exist, that they are surrounded by people who validate them, who tell them that what they are doing is okay. The good news is that their world is collapsing and won't last beyond another two generations at most.
In any case, good luck with the blog.
Cipher - Great points (and thanks for the compliment:)).
>Somewhere, there's a rabbi who has to be at least partially aware of his activities; there's a minyan that welcomes him. Apparently, no one in his sphere of influence is attempting to curb him.
I think he probably fits into to his community like any other frummie. His radical ideas are only evident when he comments on blogs, and aren't always so noticeable in daily life, I'd imagine. That's one of the things that's so great about the internet: your ideas may seem right, but once they're out there, it's easier to look at them a bit more critically. I also wonder how unconventional JP is for the frum world. I think many of his ideas are certainly not politically correct, but not very far off mainstream frum views.
>I have to chalk this up to the wagons-in-a-circle mentality so often exhibited by the frum. As bad as he is, he's still "one of us" - and I can't tell you how offensive I find this.
Where are you getting this from? Can you name me a blog that receives JP with any warmer feelings than a skeptic blog?
>I think many of his ideas are certainly not politically correct, but not very far off mainstream frum views.
As usual, you mix your charedi upbringing in squaresville with the rest of the frum world.
>It isn't so much what these people say; it's the fact that they are even allowed to exist, that they are surrounded by people who validate them, who tell them that what they are doing is okay.
The answer is what...to release the gestapo on him? UGH, i can't take these broad brushed generalities anymore, which is so odd coming from skeptics HATING when people leaving Judaism do it just to have a good time out there. This is not a math equation. Its not like because nuts exist, EVERYONE is de facto a nut like him or want to come close to him to even validate him.
A) I'm not just talking about the blog owners, but their constituents as well.
B/ Just because they're skeptical, or even deconverted, doesn't mean they no longer participate in the mindset.
I mean, when skeptics hate when frum people portray them as some unifying being, all leaving for one purpose
The answer is what...to release the gestapo on him?
Oh, this is the limit. As though there isn't pressure to conform in every facet of the frum world, from the MO to the Hareidim.
Talking to you is impossible. OTD, sorry. I'm out of here.
A) I'm not just talking about the blog owners, but their constituents as well.
B/ Just because they're skeptical, or even deconverted, doesn't mean they no longer participate in the mindset.
So then what would you think is the best idea? Just block his IP?
Oh, this is the limit. As though there isn't pressure to conform in every facet of the frum world, from the MO to the Hareidim.
Talking to you is impossible. OTD, sorry. I'm out of here.
How is this a response to what I said? Are we all of a sudden talking about conformity? That is not what you were commenting on. You were specifically angry that frum people are somehow validating his views.
>OTD, sorry. I'm out of here.
Never any pressure here;).
>The answer is what...to release the gestapo on him?
Do you have to godwin the conversation?
>As usual, you mix your charedi upbringing in squaresville with the rest of the frum world.
As usual, you mix your not-charedi upbringing in not-squaresville with the rest of the frum world.
If you have no points to make, shut up. I don't want to hear another word from you discussing people's anger levels.
About JP, how are his views not mainstream views? Is there such a thing as mainstream frum views anyway? Are there not as many ways of being frum as there are rabbis, surprisingly enough? How can you say "he's not really frum" when he *is, and "he doesn't represent all frum jews" when nobody can, because, as I've pointed out, there is a vast array of choices to believe in (at least for the males in authority to impose on everyone under their jurisdiction).
If you want to take credit for the good the frum world does, you have to be willing to own up to the bad.
>Do you have to godwin the conversation?
Merely in response to his why people like "JP should exist" comment
>As usual, you mix your not-charedi upbringing in not-squaresville with the rest of the frum world.
Noooo. I, at least am aware that people like him exist. And people from charedi communities come out like that. I know many people exist and hence I would not make a general comment like this:
"I think many of his ideas are certainly not politically correct, but not very far off mainstream frum views."
>I don't want to hear another word from you discussing people's anger levels.
Please copy and paste where I made a comment on people's "anger levels"
>About JP, how are his views not mainstream views?
How are they? Is your community like him? If they are, then they are mainstream in YOUR community. I have never heard of people like him in my community, hence, he is not mainstream in my community.
>Is there such a thing as mainstream frum views anyway?
Well, if there isen't, then your whole initial comment about his comment being mainstream in the frum community is now mute. So decide.
>How can you say "he's not really frum" when he *is, and "he doesn't represent all frum jews" when nobody can, because, as I've pointed out, there is a vast array of choices to believe in (at least for the males in authority to impose on everyone under their jurisdiction).
Where did I say he is not really frum?
>If you want to take credit for the good the frum world does, you have to be willing to own up to the bad.
I agree. But then I will shoot that back to you and Cipher. But Cipher is in a pickle because he knows there are moderates that want NOTHING to do with JP's views, so he makes something up that in some kvetchy manner, we are validating him. It's sort of like Harris's theory. I would love for Cipher to get into more specifics in his accusations.
I'm not in a "pickle"; I just can't stand trying to deal with you. Your behavior at the atheist blog a few weeks ago was atrocious.
My behavior? Please, don't lie, or over exagerate. I respect disagreement, and I came there simply to correct some assertions made, then i was attacked by all sides as being akin to Tiller. I would like you to supply something, that would point to my "behaivor being atrocious."
There'd be no point. You're contentious for the sake of being contentious. Everyone there tried, repeatedly and with varying levels of patience, to explain their collective position to you. Your response every time was "You're wrong!". You really didn't get what was being said, but you were convinced that you did. I'm sure the others didn't really care, but for me, it was an exercise in frustration.
What can I say. I invite anyone there to read the thread and judge for themselves.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/06/give_him_a_fair_trial_and_then.php
I would like them to spot out my autrocious behaivor, where I was being contentious for the sake of being contentious. I mean, seriously. And you claim we simply circle the band wagon??? It has been nothing but my experience with you that you are the one that is being contentious on the blogs that I have found you on, and you probably for good reason, you think we are all suffering from something akin to mental illness.
But seriously, I invite the readers to simply go on the site themselves and compare my commenting behavior to theirs.
HH, it wasn't Pharyngula. It was Atheist Experience:
http://atheistexperience.blogspot.com/2009/06/george-tiller-death-by-propaganda.html
Even Better. I think what you wanted was simply a forum where you (or them) can simply speak deragatory without someone simply chiming in. And obviously, from your standpoint, I am TOTALLY wrong on everything, because by definition I am suffering from something like criminal insanity. So maybe youare right, we are speaking two different languages and from your stand point anything I say is atrocious. So again, I invite the readers to go to the site and see where I was being absolutely atrocious, as you said.
And obviously, from your standpoint, I am TOTALLY wrong on everything, because by definition I am suffering from something like criminal insanity.
Oh, that's ridiculous. I was very clear in that I consider Christian fundamentalists to be criminally insane. In fact, I remember telling you that I didn't think a "nice frum boy" such as yourself could understand their mindset. I really was trying to be patient.
This is what I mean. You're contentious for the sake of being contentious. If I knew your parents, I'd write them a letter.
But you are doing it again, and you thought a comment like Christian fundamentalist=criminal insanity should not be challenged and then closing it with me being a nice frum boy wouldn't understand. So you understand them better than I do? Why? My point, IIRC, was to simply allow you to see things from their POV and to bring in other voices for Christian support for Israel, before you got into the criminal insanity comment.
And no, I am not being contentious for the sake of being contentious. If I make an error, than its an error. Thats all.
Some points for now:
>Please copy and paste where I made a comment on people's "anger levels"
Here are two:
-which is so odd coming from skeptics HATING
-You were specifically angry that frum people are somehow validating his views.
I should mention that Cipher was in no way angry. He was simply having a discussion with DrJ, which you butted into.
>Well, if there isn't, then your whole initial comment about his comment being mainstream in the frum community is now mute. So decide.
Very very dumb point. And no, I will not elaborate on why.
Cipher: Ignore HH. He's almost as disingenuous and dishonest as Garnel. They're a study in sophistry.
OTD
Some lessons in reading comprehension specifically when reading in context:
>which is so odd coming from skeptics HATING
This was not a statement of him or you spewing things out of anger but a statement of treating each other the same way you want to be treated. (ie. if you hate when Frummies, over generalize as to why people go OTD, you should not follow suit)
>You were specifically angry that frum people are somehow validating his views.
Um, go back to his comment. He said he was "offended" (his words) and "bothered" (his words). Now, do you think he might be a bit angry over people like JP? I think so.
>I should mention that Cipher was in no way angry. He was simply having a discussion with DrJ, which you butted into.
You seem to think that
a) anger is somehow always bad that it needs defended that he wasn't.
b) comments on blogs should not be addressed by other commenters. That is the point of a blog, or should we put up the URL for XGH's thread of how you are butting in every moment with your conspiracy theories about Garnel.
>Very very dumb point. And no, I will not elaborate on why.
That's because you can't. Either JP is mainstream (or part of A mainstream) or there isen't a mainstream. Take your pic. If I misunderstood the context in which you were using it, then I can be corrected easily.
>He's almost as disingenuous and dishonest as Garnel.
Yes, the ol' buggy man Garnel.
Out of curiousity, why is it now forbidden (add this to the list) to even say: "X seems angry about...."
I think, perhaps you think I was judging Cipher on being angry. I truly wasn't. Anger is of course, sometimes warranted. I think we SHOULD be angry over people like JP and where he comes to his conclusions, but that is different than pegging everyone that somehow we validate him.
The frum world, as a whole, has FAR more tolerance for people like JP than it has for those who "frei out". Someone who behaves in a reprehensible manner but upholds the party line is acceptable, but someone who challenges entrenched ideas and forces people to confront their own doubts and fears is the greatest threat imaginable. This the way it works in all religious hierarchies. Orthodoxy has been largely commandeered by the Hareidim, and under their influence has moved steadily to the right over the past six decades. Collective victimhood, combined with an "us against them" mentality, is an integral part of the mindset.
>or should we put up the URL for XGH's thread
Go right ahead.
>HH, it wasn't Pharyngula. It was Atheist Experience
Yes, I remember both threads actually. As far as I remember, you didn't interact with Cipher on the Pharyngula post, but very much so on the Atheist Experience one. This is not the first time you've made one of these "mistakes," or do I have to remind you of the Palin incident, where you "accidentally" misquoted me by using the word "Stalin" instead of "Palin." I have little patience left for you. You say, "If I make an error, than its an error," but I don't believe you.
I don't see why I shouldn't ban you for life.
>The frum world, as a whole, has FAR more tolerance for people like JP than it has for those who "frei out".
I think in many frum parts of the world you are right, but I wouldn't say all either. LA is a pretty 'open' place, it seems to have rubbed off.
>Orthodoxy has been largely commandeered by the Hareidim, and under their influence has moved steadily to the right over the past
You know, I hear people say this, and I used to think this was an absolute truth, but then i moved to my neighborhood where the more LWMO shul is really growing as well as the schools here. But I know what you mean in essence as we are just experiencing with our school.
>As far as I remember, you didn't interact with Cipher on the Pharyngula post, but very much so on the Atheist Experience one. This is not the first time you've made one of these "mistakes," or do I have to remind you of the Palin incident, where you "accidentally" misquoted me by using the word "Stalin" instead of "Palin." I have little patience left for you. You say, "If I make an error, than its an error," but I don't believe you.six decades.
Dude, what is with you???? A mix up between Palin and Stalin is now some federal crime that offends you or something???? You act as if there is some devious scheme here or something, all secretly hidden by these slight errors.
http://www.haloscan.com/comments/holyhyrax/2845964068373927794/#44649
Ooooh, look, you made an error yourself accidentally. I guess I should just ban you.
Regarding Pharyngula.... I didn't say he intereacted with Cipher, but I thought that was what he was referring to, since that was the most recent episode of an atheist blog, so I thought he followed the thread.
If you want to ban, then go ahead. Little by little you will begin to censor all other voices except for the ones that agree with you.
You know, I hear people say this, and I used to think this was an absolute truth, but then i moved to my neighborhood where the more LWMO shul is really growing as well as the schools here. But I know what you mean in essence as we are just experiencing with our school.
MO is being subsumed gradually by the black hat world. There are LWMO pockets, but Orthodoxy as a whole has moved to the right. Before the war, Orthodox rabbis would teach in Conservative schools, they'd sit on councils with Reform and Conservative rabbis. Those days are gone. The numbers of the MO are dwindling. While they've been having smaller families and educating them, the Hareidim have been procreating like rabbits. Moreover, the MO have been losing children to them; Shaul Magid wrote an article about it last fall: http://www.newvilnareview.com/features/is-there-an-orthodox-war-against-modern-orthodoxy-.html
The Hareidi world is collapsing, succumbing to pressure from without and crumbling from within. It won't last more than another two generations at most (if we have that much time left as a global civilization, which I doubt). When they go, they'll be taking all of Orthodoxy with them.
Well, really, the people that are doing the damage is not just the haredim, I blame the MO's themselves.They don't get into chinuch at all, then complain when they get charedi teachers. A good example of this was an some big MO guy came to speak to our shul ( I won't say his name), but he mentioned (jokingly, but there was obvious truth to what he is saying) that he wished his son got into finance instead of chinuch. I mean, THERE is the problem. If orthodoxy moves slowly and slowly to the right, then MO have a way to stop it, but they typically don't, and the first place is chinuch.
I agree in general with you, but I don't subscribe to your more apocolyptic scenerio that they will take ALL of orthodoxy. I take solice, that though schools are falling, the shuls are actually not moving to the right, and, thank God actually bring up sources to back up their decisions.
>If you want to ban, then go ahead.
Consider it a final warning. You better behave.
I have been behaving. I will not defend myself over either daring to say "holocaust" (in older posts) or saying someone is chas vechalila "angry." It gets to be ridiculous as to what you deem inappropriate behavior and then having to waste time defending things that in regular conversations absolutely nobody deems inappropriate. Saying someone sounds angry is not something offensive to the person I am talking to.
See, this is the thing - you always have to have the last word. You always have to win. This has been my experience of you.
And, by the way - I think it's significant that a conversation I'm still annoyed about weeks later, you didn't remember until I called your attention to it - and, even then, you thought I meant a different thread. And in that conversation, I referred to an encounter we'd had months earlier, in which you also gave me a hard time - and I'm positive you don't remember that one.
My point is - you give offense casually. You don't realize how your manner affects people.
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