One of the last things I did as a frum person was learn Nach. If I remember correctly, I had been skeptical of religion for a long time, and I decided to learn all of Nach to see if there was anything to my religion. You know, to give it one last chance to make its case before I dumped the whole darn thing.
In most yeshivas, you’re not supposed to learn Nach. It’s highly frowned upon (as is not learning until 11:00 every night). You’re not even really supposed to learn Chumash. It’s pretty much gemara all the way, folks. There’s a very strict set of what is learned and isn’t learned (usually decided by some rabbi) and I darn sure hope you like it, because hey, you don’t got a lot of choice, kid. And I should mention gemara is full of some pretty insane shit, and if I remember correctly, I didn’t learn a single teaching that might be considered moral in today’s day and age in all my years of learning gemara. So maybe before spouting your sacred myths that your religion is extremely *moral*, maybe crack open a damn book, goddammit.
Anyway, I remember being extremely excited for my new project. Opening my fresh Artscroll translated Tanach, I was going to delve into the ancient books of my religion and see if there was anything worthwhile there (as it turned out, there wasn’t much. Sure, it was a bit better than gemara, but it’s the narcissism of small differences).
I spent a few months poring over my artscroll Tanach. I went from the beginning right through to the end, reading mostly only the English side. I remember experiencing the whole gamut of emotions, from exhilaration to severe depression (okay, I’m overdoing it). Being shocked, appalled, and sometimes even surprised at what the “prophets” had to say. One hell of an experience, I assure you.
What really struck me was the power of the literature. Some beautiful, epic stories, and you could really see how some of them affected Western civilization and the Jewish people. Some really impressive stuff, and some really shameful stuff, too, I daresay. What really impressed me though, was the utter consistency of it, in that Divrei HaYamim (Book of Chronicles) was hardly distinguishable from say, Genesis. A lot of the books looked so similar internally, it was hard to tell who wrote what. I hadn’t been formally introduced to biblical scholarship and the Documentary Hypothesis beforehand, but it was almost obvious to me that the writing styles through so many of the books were practically the same, and there was hardly any reason to believe that, say, the Five Books of Moses, were written by God, or dictated by any sort of deity. Plenty of talented writes for thousands of years could have written the same kind of thing, and it would have looked just about the same. That was one of the things that really hit me, the linguistic implausibility of any of these books being authored by anyone other than human beings. Belief in TMS down the toilet.
What really really really blew away though was when I came across verses in II Kings 22:8 and Nechemiah 8:13 that said the Children of Israel “forgot” the words of the Torah for many years before people like Ezra “reminded them” of it. That really blew me away. I had often heard the Kuzari “proof” of the historicity of the mass revelation at Sinai. Essentially the argument goes: we have a chain going all the way back to Sinai saying that we received the Torah by revelation at Sinai. In front of millions of people! And why would so many people lie about such a thing? I had always bought the Kuzari argument (pretty much hook line and sinker) but here I had staring me in the face from the Bible itself problems with this. We all know a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, and if the Children of Israel “forgot” the Torah for a while and then were “reminded” of it by a couple priests, what kind of mass tradition is that? So we don’t have a chain going back all the way to Sinai (though it sounds really nice). We have a chain going back at best to several hundred years *after* Sinai, and anything before that is really fuzzy. So what kind of BS is this?
Perhaps it is for this reason that rabbis don’t generally allow their students to learn Nach. Maybe it gives them a sense of irreverence for certain holy books, and makes them aware that most of Orthodoxy is just castles built in the air by rabbis over the millennia, and that there’s not much support for anything they say in Tanach, and Tanach could easily be used by any number of other religions, to say things wildly different than what rabbis say (I think Christianity does that to an extent, although I’ve always wanted to study the New Testament. Must stay on topic.) It’s ironic, because in the gemara the rabbi are always cherrypicking verses from Tanach to support what they say, or to attack someone else, or their opinion. They never quite in-depth study Tanach, instead they mostly dissect Mishnas, which are just the ramblings of other, older rabbis about mostly thing like halacha, and have even less to do with Tanach. Sure, it’s an ancient religion, and it’s about some old myths, traditions, and practices, but it would be nice if there was a truth factor involved, as well.
If your own holy books contradict your beliefs, what do you want from my fucking life?
How to Reign in Religious Extremism
1 hour ago
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Hey! I just thought of something that I once heard Rabbi Keleman say.This was a few years ago, so I hope I remember it correctly, but I believe he said something that head-on ignores this part of the Torah in an effort to prove that Sinai mass revelation actually happened. (Please ignore his shoddy logic and his reluctance to admit that maybe, just maybe, the whole story is bullshit for just one moment, and focus on the reasons he uses).
His argument roughly goes like this: We have a book, and the book says, "Your ancestors spoke to you all at Sinai." Now, who are the "you" that are being addressed?
a) it's really the people whose ancestors experienced it, and that's why there's no outcry of "That's not true! Grandma never told me that!" in the following verses
b) it's not the people whose ancestors experienced it, in which case, who are they? Well, they could be the people themselves, but then there would be an outcry of "Hey, that was us!! Not our ancestors!!", which there isn't.
But what if there's a third person, who just wrote this book on the side, and is now introducing it to a group of people, saying, "This book is your history, your long-lost mythology, it's about your ancestors", well then, the people reading it would be like, "Hey, you say here that our ancestors were at Sinai, but Grandpa is sitting right here and he says he never heard anything about that from his Grandpa!" and besides, ***HERES THE CLINKER**** if some third guy, let's call him "Fred" had written the Torah and then introduced it to the people as an old document, wouldn't there be a section in the Torah saying, "And then Fred brought us this glorious gift, this history of our mythology, and so we now make Fred "Fred the Prophet" or something like that? Why isn't this guy who brought us such an important document mentioned at all? Why isn't there "Fred the Prophet" anywhere in the Torah?
Answer: mass revelation really happened, the "you" in the verse is really the descendants of those witnesses, who have heard about it from their ancestors, and of course if Sinai really happened...chances are that God really gave it to us.
His argument for why God exists also involves shoddy logic, incorrect definitions, etc. Actually quite funny if you're in the mood for some pseudoscience and pseudologic.
In any case though, my point is that these verses would seem to be talking about exactly that, a "Fred the Prophet" who "reminded" the Jews of their ancient history and all that happened to their ancestors. I wonder if Lawrence Keleman has read Nach?
*Edit: I meant to say, "God spoke to all of your ancestors at Sinai"
OTD- this is your best work.
OTD you could also have mentioned how after the Exile jewish tradition claims that they found the Torah from three copies left buried in the temple courtyard. That they were buried in the first place makes them at best second or third hand accounts. Hardly reliable for an unbroken chain to Sinai
Good stuff. Yeah, the title "Ezra HaSofer" took on a whole new meaning for me when I realized he could have been the actual redactor.
It's unreal. These kiruv klowns not only have to ignore most of science, they have to ignore huge chunks of the BIBLE, as well.
That's why you're not supposed to read subversive stuff like Tanach when you are in yeshivah.
Clearly, the rabbis should ban Tanach. It's worse than the Internet!
awesome post. the best thing to help a potential BT's is to learn. Learn what? Learn Torah of course, just on your own.
sorry word missing. the best way to help potential bt's to escape, is to learn.
Even better The Book of Micha says that the King of the Jews is going to be born in Bethlehem. XD
Even though I think that's more of a self fufilling kind of thing. XD
Christianity definitely uses the Tanach to boost their own belief system. My school teachers always talked about how Jesus's fulfillment of the prophecies of the "Old Testament" prove he is the messiah, the prophecy most cited being the non-existent one of moshiach being born of a virgin. Any prophecies that are not actually fulfilled in the gospels will usually be explained away with talk of them being fulfilled by Jesus's second coming.
The gospels of the New Testament and Acts are kind of interesting (there's lots of Pharisee bashing :-D ). I personally find the Epistles (letters of Paul) to be the most boring books of the whole Christian bible. Revelations is just batshit insane.
You seem to be a very interesting person. I enjoy reading your views. I don't like to comment on other people's opinions when they come from a very personal place (don't worry - I'm not going to follow that with a but...). I just wanted you to know how expressive you are - I really understood you just by reading a couple of posts. Thank you!
Thanks.
Interestingly, my nephew in Chabad just told me he's teaching Nach to young kids - ten or twelve years old, or thereabouts. I don't know what those Chabadniks can be thinking.
On the other hand, he's also teaching them Yiddish (which even he admits is being taught in an abysmal manner in Chabad schools; it's the only criticism of them he'll express), and lamented the dearth of books available for his use. There's one that he and the other teachers wanted to use, but some of the parents complained because it contained stories about Mitnagdishe rabbis - including the Chofetz Chaim! - so they had to eschew it. He thinks it's ridiculous, but it didn't outraged him; he just laughed - which infuriated me.
Batshit insane.
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